Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 394 Location: Near the Hells mouth known as Basingstoke
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: 1303 watercooled vw - a project which I need to plan
Ok so my 1303 with its amazingly rare porsche bodykit really isnt selling because of the 'credit crunch' combined with its unique styling.
So far I have had only a handful of people interested in it and only once did it get as high as 800 quid on ebay. I have plainly been getting fed up with the amount of people interested in this from several hundred miles away plus keep on pestering about it, i prefer someone within 30-40 miles to come have a look, go away and come back with money rather than the hassel of people from miles away.
with this in mind while I need to sell it a plot has been hatching to watercool this thing and give it some power and make it go like it looks.
so lets start with how it looks:
So thats what it looks like.
So far bits wise I am waiting for this to arrive:
apparently someone said it looks like an early kennedy adaptor, I have bought if off someone for £45 second hand and waiting for it to arrive, its just the adaptor so no flywheel but not a bad price.
Now the plan revolves around the fact that the 1303 is a 1974 model, it needs to be taxed but luckily is in the >1500cc cheaper tax bracket so Ideally I want to keep it that way, engine wise under 1500cc vw watercooled wise I have 3 routes I can take.1) 1500cc golf petrol engine, bolt straight to my adaptor and 70bhp. 2)1500cc golf diesel engine - using 1600 TD bits to turbo it. 3)1300/1400cc polo engines.
I'm looking at option 3) polo engine. Mainly because I know someone with a 1300cc polo engine they offered me for £30, apparently its 55bhp which for a stock engine is 5bhp more than a stock 1600 bug engine and apparently also good on fuel. the advantage also is the polo engines get tuned lots and can probably be built up to 100bhp easy enough, also I have renault 5 turbo stuff, suited to a 1.4 engine perfect!
The whole reason I'm looking at this project is because the car has the bodykit fitted. I altered the front bumper to have that scoop in it with the intention of fitting an oil cooler to cool a turbo a/c motor in it, as this hasnt happened its perfect for a radiator and a rad there wont look out of place.
At the moment I have a yamaha FZR600 radiator which looks to be just right for the scoop and because its got a low profile fan its perfect for the job, I'm going to investigate if a golf 1300 rad will fit inside the bumper to give a bit more cooling. if I go with the FZR600 rad I need to find a bit more cooling even if it cools a 90bhp bike. I think probably another similar size radiator for a 600-750-1000cc bike near the engine will be the ticket as looking around the underside of the engine bay, with a water cooled lump in there i think there could be some room for some more rads, I'm a fan of small and lots as its easier to find homes for it.
for piping I was looking at using 25mm aluminium pipe as its not bad on price, its about the same size as the outlets on the bike rads and also getting standard rubber hose in 25mm isnt to hard. I'd run 2 x 3m lengths down the centre of the chassis held in plase with P clips, the lowest part f the car is that front bumper so i think pipes would be fine.
heating system I have seen alot of people with beetles put it under the rear seat, I have been looking at putting it somewhere else, namely connected to the fresh air box. if you look at this pic..
basically you have the removable black panel giving access to the inside of the airbox, what I was going to do is using a method I have seen on the internet is use brown tape and cover the panel then mould a fibreglass one, then next to the airbox theres a bit of a gap where the glovebox is where I could mount a small heater matrix/fan trying to keep it compact. or if i make the fibreglass panel then sort of include the matrix fan inside in the same sort of way as a modern car.
so thats what I have planned in my head so far, just need to look at the actual doing part which will be over the next few months.
I appreciate any tips/points anyone comes up with, like how I can get round the problem of the dizzy sticking through the firewall, why vw had to put it on the end of the head I shall never know *rolls eyes* _________________ Second Gear All The Way Baby!
To me it all seems like far too much hassle for only 5bhp just to save a few quid a year on tax! Better off going at least for a GTI engine, should also fit easily under your whale tail. I'd also go with one big radiator, big fans are much more efficient than the multiple small ones you'd need on small radiators. Such small bore pipes and all the extra connections would also restrict the flow to a point where your stock water pump may not cope... You may also be surprised that a bigger engine could give better mpg as it isn't being worked as hard most of the time... _________________ http://www.ricola.co.uk
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 394 Location: Near the Hells mouth known as Basingstoke
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject:
well, 5bhp against a stock 1600 engine, 11bhp against a 1300 engine which is what it had as standard. 5bhp makes a noticable difference when its fueled different(eg newer technology, carbs closer to the heads or fuel injection making it more responsive).
the point with tax is an extra 60 quid a year, may not sound like much but its a far few packets of biscuits to go with my tea. Then there is also the insurance, once again it wont cost much but the beetle was a 1300 from the factory so it will only be 44bhp, I'm only allowed 18bhp before it starts getting more expencive, a 1.8/2.0 GTi engine is clearly going to be more than 62bhp. plus im trying to keep the insurance down because of putting my g/f on it (only recently passed her test), my golf they want 300 quid extra, the beetle they want 80.
One big factor is that I have been offered a 1300 polo engine for 30 quid, to source a Gti lump we are talking 150+ quid from what I have seen.
So what I am looking to do using my experience of my campers engine conversion is make a conversion for this car for my g/f to use as a daily driver if she needs but without really spending alot of money, people will always say why try and do it if you arnt willing to spend the money but its more about trying to do things as cheaply as possible with good results.
Based on the fact I already have 1 radiator which I deem as suitable for the conversion, means I have to source 1 other of a similar size to get adequit cooling capacity - its a 1300 polo engine, not a hyperspace warp drive. I have spent £45 on an adaptor plate that may need slight modding for a polo engine, then £30 polo engine, so far we have some of the main components for this build for just £75!
There will be no doubt alot more expense involved in the project(mainly hose clips, i used 10 zillion on my bus conversion!) but the aim is using experience and what I have to minimise the cost of the overal project, turning a slightly unique looking beetle with 34 year old technology into something that has all the characteristics of a modern daily driver for minimum cost, like front fogs, heating in the front for the screen, reliabilty, little more power, LED lights and better headlights, programable intermittant wipe and electric window washing on the stalk - all things I find when I get into my mk3 golf everyday which is alot more expencive to run!
In essense the project is about watercooling a beetle for minimum cost and not making it more expencive to run. _________________ Second Gear All The Way Baby!
Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2527 Location: Mudway, Kent
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject:
Why not do a H2O T3 motor. Loads less grief. _________________ The advice you receive on here is worth the paper it's written on.
Your experiences are worth shed loads to others, including the f'ups - live and learn.
Wouldn't YOU rather learn by someone else's mistakes? So would they.
'78 Bay, 2 litre 091 box, EJ20 NA & the ashtray's on the 'right' side.
I don't lean forward for hills any more
Bugger, missed out on "Live fast, die young"
Is the existing A/C kippered then?
If not I would carry on driving that a bit longer and save up to gain some real power. 5 - 11-bhp is going to be barely noticable and wont be much gained for the £ and time you will have spent.
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 394 Location: Near the Hells mouth known as Basingstoke
Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject:
well the engine is currently a 1200/1600 hybrid with 6:1 compression ratio, I only have 1 heat exchanger after having a pair go on my and no a pair spare so...
the car is probably looking to be around the 40-44bhp mark and it feels it.
Heating is generally rubbish with windscreen demisting and to be honest ti wasnt great when the heating was working properly.
fuel economy generally is probably about 30mpg on a run, cant say I have ever got much mpg out a beetle on a run. 25ish round town.
Engine tops out abotu 4000rpm and due to its hybrid nature I dont think I'd want to hammer it any harder.
I have to pay 120 quid tax per year as unfortunately its not tax exempt.
I have aquired for 45 quid an adaptor play for a vw engine to start with and have got to the point where I'm thinking of keeping the 1303 longer term as its cheaper to run than my golf. I was offered a polo engine for 30 quid and because its also 1300 it wont effect the insurance/tax, I will have water heating with more control, a bit more power (55bhp in my fastback felt miles quicker than my beetle) and apparently its possible to get 40mpg out of these little polo engines.
I estimate I need to spend about £60 on pipework and about £20 on another radiator, with the overal price of doing the conversion comign to probably the 200 quid mark, I cant build a decent hi mpg beetle engine with good heating for that much! _________________ Second Gear All The Way Baby!
go for a polo 6n (mk4) 1.4 16v engine. plenty about, 100bhp as standard. have a fiddle and you've got 110bhp. now that is worth swapping.
my old polo was loads nippier than my mk3 golf gti. _________________ most bad experiences ive had included cars that werent german. never again
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 394 Location: Near the Hells mouth known as Basingstoke
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject:
andewilson wrote:
go for a polo 6n (mk4) 1.4 16v engine. plenty about, 100bhp as standard. have a fiddle and you've got 110bhp. now that is worth swapping.
my old polo was loads nippier than my mk3 golf gti.
Yeah the 16v 1.4 would probably fit a little easier too space wise because it doesnt have a distributor on the end of the engine, I'm probably going to stick wit hthe 1.3 engine(because I can get one uber cheap) and turbo charge it, as a crossflow engine im sure it'll tune ok!
My adaptor plate arrived yesterday and looks just like the picture
I cant seem to insure my g/f on my beetle without donating an arm and a leg, it would cost as much to add her to a 44bhp beetle as a 90bhp mk3 golf work that out!
after messing about on youtube lastnite i'd quite like a VR6 with a stillen/whipple supercharger to make it sound as crazy as it looks
I think budget says no on this one so stick to something small
Think I may have found an engineered solution to the distributor so i dont have to go cutting the firewall about although I really need to look at the engine to see how feasable this is, but the idea is that i would take the dizzy off the head and then mount it next to the head and connect the end of the cam/dizzy with a small toothed belt like the cambelt but on a small scale. That way would mean that I only need about an inch clearance on the end of the engine vs about 6" to fit the dizzy. The alternative was to mount the dizzy somewhere on the cambelt end with another cam wheel on so its driven direct from the same source as the cam.
Some may say I'm trying to reinvent the wheel a little bit, but my aims are set at having something that works on simple parts with minimal additional electronics (not that it really bothers me but simple is good) fits into a beetle engine bay without modifying the cars sheel too much to suit. Modding an engine lid to fit an engine under is one thing as they are easiliy replaced if you ever wanted to stick an A/C lump in again but once you start cutting firewalls bout doesnt look so pretty.
Hopefully in the next week my first mod to the car will be a homebrew LED lighting conversion to replace the stop/tail bulbs with strips of LEDs, hoping to also do the same for the sidelights, reverse lights and eventually the indicators. I have already done the speedo _________________ Second Gear All The Way Baby!
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 878 Location: Tyne & Wear
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject:
Have to say I'm with Ricola and the other guys on this one
You'd be much better off using a good 1600 twin port air-cooled engine with correct heat-exchangers rather than the 1.3 Polo engine, it's just not worth all the effort involved.
As for insurance I.d be surprised if your girlfriend would get insured to drive it with the Polo engine fitted because it would become a non standard vehicle and therefore should be declared as a Modified vehicle to be legally insured
Look at the power figures, Polo is 5 bhp more but has 7 ft-lb less Torque so you'll notice very little change for all this work.
Polo 1985 1.3
Maximum power = 55.0 bhp @ 5400 rpm
Maximum torque = 71 ft·lb @ 3300 rpm
1600 Air-Cooled (Twin port)
Maximum power = 50.0 bhp @ 4000 rpm
Maximum torque = 78 ft·lb @ 2800 rpm
It's your choice though and this is only my opinion so please don't think I'm rubbishing your idea. I just think you have much better options available _________________ DARREN
I LOVE RUST ME
Patent Pending "The Ultimate In Rust Remedy"
Joined: 19 Mar 2008 Posts: 394 Location: Near the Hells mouth known as Basingstoke
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject:
well thats fair enough I suppose, i was thinking more 1300 with a turbo though lol.
at the moment im sort of hanging towards a vr6 lump but they dont come cheap, it would just sound awesome though.
mostly because looking at it if i do change the engine i would have to tell the dvla and then start paying more tax (bugger!) which im not keen to do, hell with a tax exempt beetle I could put anything i like in it and not worry, i just have enough to tax most days with a bike and car as well as the beetle.
if im going to go bigger tax group ideally I want to make plenty more power/noise.
I could go down the route of getting a 2litre 8v block and fitting the KR1.8 16v head, this means the dizzy is block mounted and wont get in the way and apparently because it also slightly ups the compression ration thought the smaller head chamers designed for 1.8 it also ups the power a little. 2litre 16v is 147bhp out the factory!
the other alternative which would be a nice easy one is use the 1.8 monotronic injection lump as found in mk3 golfs which is the same as my mk3, its got minimal clutter and I have seen complete lumps go for as little as 80-90 quid.
I'd still like to look out for staying under the 1.5 bracket, better still would be the golf 1.5, apparently about 70bhp which is a healthy increase.
I will keep my eyes open for a VR6 lump though, I mean hell if your going to go big, go BIG
The only issue with the VR6 is apparenyl the adaptor plate is different
I guess I'll see whats about! _________________ Second Gear All The Way Baby!
you've gone from 1.3 idea to vr ....... BIG jump.. (especially when you want it on the cheapside )
more cash than power in my opinion...ok vr's sound great, but not much power for buck and very heavy...unless charged ( but that's a different story)
ive seen a bug with a g60 engine...very quick
or if you want cheap power, then 18.16v kr lump..lot cheaper than the abf 2.0l and only about 10bhp less.....( will a peugeot dissy help with the space issue?)
but if you can get it then g40........or just a 1.3, spacer gasket and turbo
In your shoes i'd go with the 1.3 turbo idea ...... _________________ '76 bay going superfly TDI
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